# Bubble's Access to and Use of Private App Data for "Trust and Security" Purposes **URL:** \ **Category:** Questions\ **Created:** [July 11, 2024, 5:02pm UTC](https://forum.bubble.io/t/bubbles-access-to-and-use-of-private-app-data-for-trust-and-security-purposes/330609 "2024-07-11T17:02:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![JoshBuildsABiz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@JoshBuildsABiz](https://forum.bubble.io/u/JoshBuildsABiz)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2024, 5:02pm UTC](https://forum.bubble.io/t/bubbles-access-to-and-use-of-private-app-data-for-trust-and-security-purposes/330609/1 "2024-07-11T17:02:06Z")
Since it has become abundantly clear that Bubble is using the fact that the OP has marked their post as “Solved” in the original thread that gave rise to a number of legitimate concerns within the Bubble community — particularly those who work on apps involving sensitive commercial, legal, financial, or health-related data — to not engage further with the broader Bubble community on this subject, I am starting a separate thread here, as my concerns have certainly not been addressed in any meaningful, respectful or professional way. I am quoting my original reply below, but the TL;DR version of this is that it has come to light that Bubble is performing both automated scans of private app data and manual checks by its team of same, for “trust and security” purposes. This is not clearly or adequately disclosed in Bubble’s ToS (including the AUP by reference), and it has significant implications for any Bubble clients building apps handling any of the sensitive categories of data listed above, **as well as** any Bubble clients building apps with EU clients given the legal and regulatory requirements governing the data of EU citizens and residents (which would implicate the vast majority of Bubble apps, and thus, Bubble clients). Notwithstanding the going concern about possible app deletions, blockages and takedowns based on these “trust and security” scans and manual checks, these internal risk management practices by Bubble have legal implications for its clients that need to be addressed in our own ToS, privacy policies and legal agreements with the users of the apps we build on Bubble. While I remain steadfast in my assertion that these non-technical stability concerns deserve immediate and fulsome attention from the top levels of the organization, and an external review of Bubble’s governance and policy frameworks (including corresponding enforcement practices) in conjunction with its **actual** legal agreements with its clients, **at the very bare minimum if these “trust and security” practices are to continue to access private app data — and thus the private data of _our_ clients/users — paying Bubble clients need appropriate and accurate legal terms incorporated into Bubble’s ToS that can then be cited and passed through to our own apps’ ToS and legal agreements with our clients, so that they can make a properly informed decision as to who will have access to their private (and in some contexts, sensitive and confidential) data if they choose to engage with our Bubble apps.** That bare minimum response serves only to allow us to cover ourselves legally with our clients and end users; it does nothing to address the concerns outlined below, and in the original thread that gave rise to these concerns, about the fact that these “trust and security” practices for all intents and purposes mean that Bubble cannot be used for enterprise apps and entire categories of use cases because most reasonable people in an enterprise user (and/or sensitive data) context will **not** consent to a company they have no direct relationship with (i.e. - Bubble) scanning and accessing their private and confidential data. As emphatically stated and reiterated by numerous long-time members of the Bubble community in the original thread, this is not a topic to be directed on a case-by-case basis to support tickets — particularly given well-founded concerns about the insufficient legal versing of responsible team members — but one best handled in the proverbial “light of day” here in the Bubble Forum and/or in email updates from Bubble’s senior leadership team to the Bubble community. Thank you in advance, to Bubble’s **senior leadership team** for providing a thoughtful and considered response to these concerns, including an appropriate allocation of resources to see to their resolution, in a transparent and ongoing dialogue with the community of paid Bubble clients. > [@Bubble can simply delete your app or subscription](https://forum.bubble.io/t/bubble-can-simply-delete-your-app-or-subscription/329070/114): > > There are a host of elements within this thread that are gravely concerning to me, both as a business owner who has invested hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars in this (meta)platform, and as someone who routinely evangelizes and refers fellow entrepreneurs to it. > > 1. Automated deletions of legitimate Bubble apps on paid plans with no apparent prior human intervention, and it would seem not even an email communication to the affected Bubble client/app owner. > > 2. Enforcement actions taken against Bubble apps — whether programmatically or manually — based on “Summary” elements of the Terms of Service (and the Acceptable Use Policy [AUP] by reference) that are **explicitly** denoted by Bubble’s lawyers as having no legal effect, and thus no legal binding on Bubble’s clients or their apps. > > - Of equal importance, as has been aptly pointed out by several different members of the Bubble community in this thread, the “Summary” for **“3. USE OF THE PLATFORM”** has no grounding in either the terms within that section of the ToS, or in the Acceptable Use Policy incorporated by reference. And yet this same non-binding “Summary” is what Bubble’s team and internal “trust and safety” algorithms seem to both be leaning on in taking compliance actions and making compliance decisions. Very troubling. > > 1. Bubble seems to have been caught talking out of both sides of its mouth at the moment when it comes to assuring the privacy of the data stored in apps built on its platform. On the one hand, it has at long last implemented a programmatic safeguard that gives the impression that data stored in a private, deployed Bubble app can only be accessed by Bubble when its client/the app owner has explicitly given permission for said access. > > > "Grant Bubble data access to troubleshoot your app > > > > Select a value in this dropdown to grant Bubble employees different levels of access to your app’s data, helping them troubleshoot issues for you. > > > > "[…] If the setting is disabled (no permissions): > > > > 1. Bubble employees will not have access to the Data – App data tab and cannot see/edit database records in any of your app’s databases > > > > 2. Bubble employees will still be able to view and edit the app > > > > 3. Bubble employees will be able to see any app data exposed in app preview or the deployed, live app\* > > > > 4. Bubble employees will be able to see data that is exposed in the logs > > > > Only app admins will have the authority to change this setting. Bubble employees do not have access to change it."\*\* > > - On the other hand, we find out that Bubble is automatically scanning the private data stored within its apps, something that at a bare minimum will need to be disclosed by Bubble clients to their own app users, especially any users based in the EU. > > \*_It is at best unclear what qualifies as “exposed” app data, and whether this somehow includes querying private data in apps simply because they have been deployed._ > > \*\*_Conspicuously absent from [the Manual entry above](https://manual.bubble.io/core-resources/application-settings/general#grant-bubble-data-access-to-troubleshoot-your-app), is any mention of Bubble’s internal “trust and safety” algorithms._ > > 1. Even antivirus software quarantines potentially malicious files for review when they are detected; it doesn’t immediately delete them with no prior notice or ability to review whether or not a file is — in fact — harmful. There are a myriad of other ways Bubble could be handling this if it continues to auto-surveil the private data held within its clients’ apps, any of which would be far superior to what has been outlined in this thread as its current practice. > > - My recommendation — IF this auto-surveillance continues, which I believe may well violate privacy laws, or at a minimum, Bubble’s own legal agreements with its clients — would be to take a similar approach to antivirus software, effectively quarantining an app by presenting an innocuous and nondescript message to any app users who try and access it that the app is undergoing some unannounced internal review and critical maintenance and immediately notifying the app owner (Bubble’s client) and allowing them to respond to the purported issue, which would be reviewed by a qualified, legally-versed Bubble staff member against Bubble’s **actual** legal agreements with its clients, including its ToS and DAU that Bubble clients agree to abide by. > > 1. I am alarmed with the potential implications of this auto-surveillance for the app I am currently working on, which you could crudely characterize as a specialized LinkedIn for a closed business network. I do not administer the network — that is, I do not decide who gets admitted and who gets rejected. However, they do have published criteria as to what they consider when a prospective member applies to join, which are primarily revenue-based/based on the size of a business. > > - Both the CEOs of OnlyFans and PornHub would technically qualify based on these criteria, were they to ever apply in the future to be members of this organization. If accepted, they would add their profile similarly to LinkedIn, with the name of their business (both presumably “NSFW” terms in the context of this thread, and auto-surveillance activities of both published and private app data by Bubble) and a link to their respective business websites. > > - It would require quite the stretch of the imagination — and interpretation of Bubble’s ToS and DAU, even if they **did** have any actually legally binding terms precluding the promotion of (consensual) pornography, which they currently **do not** — to claim that my app is promoting pornography, and yet after this thread I am concerned that the possible growth of this business network (which is about to take off exponentially in the U.S.) could put the very existence of my app in jeopardy. Nothing I have read here is reassuring to the contrary, even in this, the most “vanilla” of business application contexts. > > 1. To give a less “vanilla” category of business application contexts as an example further illustrating the issues at play here, is it now reasonable to assume that anyone looking to build a dating app should not attempt to do so on Bubble? Any DM-type features will most certainly involve “spicy” 🌶 chat between users of said apps, however defined within the client communities targetted (limited only by the imagination of the app developer, given the highly specialized dating/matchmaking apps that exist today). > > 2. I have spent thousands of dollars to retain legacy Bubble plans following the change in pricing and business model announced last year. After over a year of holding on to these plans, it became evident that Bubble had omitted an important asterisk from its announcements and related communications to its client base: > > \*_We are going to paygate all of the promised platform improvements developed over the next 18 months to the new pricing plans, with the exception of UI-related improvements because it is too annoying and burdensome to maintain 2 separate UIs for the platform._ > > - Had Bubble been upfront about this, I would never have retained those plans. I find this at best dubious and at worst manipulative and unethical. My trust and faith in Bubble as an organization has been hugely undermined based on this experience; one that I am sure anyone else who retained legacy plans at the short-notice forced business decision to retain/acquire them or lose them forever by 2023-05-01, can empathize and identify with. > > 1. It is at best unclear as to whether this is a sin of omission or a sin of commission when it comes to the paygating of promised platform improvements, but given that Bubble only recently (begrudgingly, or graciously, depending on whether you ask Bubble or its clients I suspect 🤔) extended bulk data operations to its Agency plans, I lean towards the latter in this instance. > > 2. It seems there may be another missing asterisk at the end of Bubble’s mission statement. If that is the case, the Bubble community deserves to know this sooner than later, and no less than absolute transparency and clarity as to what types of apps can be built on Bubble, and which cannot. > > > “We aim to build the best platform that empowers our users to create powerful web apps\* without writing code.” > > \*_Excluding certain categories of web apps as outlined on a similar page to [Stripe’s “Prohibited and Restricted Businesses” page](https://stripe.com/en-ca/legal/restricted-businesses#prohibited-businesses)_ **?** > > As others have noted in this thread, this would seem to run contrary to Bubble’s stated mission and the current ToS and AUP, but with enforcement actions like the one that precipitated this thread, it seems Bubble may be heading in that direction and either **a)** drifting from its Mission or **b)** redefining its Mission in real time. > > Is this a sin of omission, or a sin of commission? Time — and Bubble’s further response or non-response to the communal concerns raised herein — will tell. > > 1. Contrasted with the hardware and software issues that characterized the platform instability earlier this year, these are “firmware” issues with Bubble’s current governance, policy framework and application (or misapplication) thereof by Bubble’s staff and internal “trust and safety” algorithms. These too are stability issues, calling the trustworthiness of Bubble as a reliable and predictable platform to build on, into question. They should be treated with no less seriousness, and a corresponding allocation of resources by your organization. > > - Now that the technical stability issues have sufficiently ‘stabilized’, it seems both timely and prudent for Bubble to invest in and commit to an independent review of its governance and policy framework to address its non-technical stability issues. > > - While whomever you choose for this should be highly reputable with a solid body of work over many years supplementing their credentials, I recommend you consider Ontario’s former Information & Privacy Commissioner, Dr. Ann Cavoukian for this. I have no connection to her whatsoever; I simply respect and admire some of the important work she has done to help organizations improve their governance and accountability, including with her Privacy by Design (PbD) framework, which has since become an international standard that organizations can certify against. > > Though I can only speak for myself, the flippant handling thus far of the well-founded communal concerns raised within this thread by Bubble’s head of trust and safety — including marking this thread as “Resolved” to inhibit further discussion 🙄 — has **not** bolstered my trust; it has further eroded it. After a well-deserved long weekend for many of Bubble’s team, I hope that we receive as thorough, thoughtful and transparent a response to these non-technical stability concerns as the technical stability concerns from earlier this year did from the highest levels of the organization, **including** an ongoing commitment to equally transparent communication, dialogue and updates on their resolution. ---
**Author:** ![drixxon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/bubble/user_avatar/forum.bubble.io/drixxon/32/90231_2.png) [@drixxon](https://forum.bubble.io/u/drixxon)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2024, 9:09pm UTC](https://forum.bubble.io/t/bubbles-access-to-and-use-of-private-app-data-for-trust-and-security-purposes/330609/2 "2024-07-11T21:09:51Z")
This is spot on and artfully crafted & organized. I hope @laura.oppenheimer or @jayvee.nava as heads of Bubble community along with trust & safety can chime in and bring some clarity to this now that the other thread is marked as resolved. ---
**Author:** ![GaryIreland](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7feea3/32.png) [@GaryIreland](https://forum.bubble.io/u/GaryIreland)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2024, 1:04am UTC](https://forum.bubble.io/t/bubbles-access-to-and-use-of-private-app-data-for-trust-and-security-purposes/330609/3 "2024-07-12T01:04:50Z")
AFAIK the basic fact of scanning their own rented servers for criminal activity is standard. Might be wrong but I think AWS is up to that too, if only from impressions gathered in the other thread. Willing to leave it open to review if it turns out that in fact competitors can offer rigorous privacy. The most recent staff reply went some way towards relieving my concerns in that it implied there’s no strict NSFW filter in place beyond maybe getting flagged for some checks for exploitation/fraud which is valid. Implications aren’t enough though I want clear statements of what’s allowed and what isn’t. Someone from the bubble staff needs to flatly address the mistake of referencing those summaries in place of the legal terms and declaring pornography off limits. Is it or not? Can someone make a pornhub or onlyfans clone on bubble? The original OP’s behaviour could have turned out to have justified a ban but it wouldn’t erase the concerns raised by him getting no notification. Is it standard practice to implement enforcement actions like this without notifying the app owner? let alone prior to the action? Further, can we get confirmation that the understandably _somewhat_ secret review process has humans in the mix? Let me endeavor to draft a statement that would satisfy my concerns(and hopefully others); Guys we don’t have a nanny state approach to the content on your apps. Don’t defraud your customers or aid them in defrauding their customers and you’ll be fine. There is absolutely not a list of bad words that can be used to break your apps as a prank. Yes we do scan all data for certain criminal activity. That’s legally mandated of us in the US and is standard across the industry. Here are the clear cut terms covering this issue that you can share with your clients. In the event your app is flagged for legit reasons we will loop you in, you won’t just find out when your users complain. Sorry about quoting that mother line like it means anything legally. ---
**Author:** ![JoshBuildsABiz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@JoshBuildsABiz](https://forum.bubble.io/u/JoshBuildsABiz)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2024, 2:22am UTC](https://forum.bubble.io/t/bubbles-access-to-and-use-of-private-app-data-for-trust-and-security-purposes/330609/4 "2024-07-22T02:22:34Z")
🙏 Thank you for the kind words, @drixxon ! Waiting patiently for a reply from Bubble’s senior leadership team on this. ---
**Author:** ![JoshBuildsABiz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@JoshBuildsABiz](https://forum.bubble.io/u/JoshBuildsABiz)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2024, 2:27am UTC](https://forum.bubble.io/t/bubbles-access-to-and-use-of-private-app-data-for-trust-and-security-purposes/330609/5 "2024-07-22T02:27:08Z")
> [@GaryIreland](#): > > Guys we don’t have a nanny state approach to the content on your apps. Don’t defraud your customers or aid them in defrauding their customers and you’ll be fine. There is absolutely not a list of bad words that can be used to break your apps as a prank. Yes we do scan all data for certain criminal activity. That’s legally mandated of us in the US and is standard across the industry. Here are the clear cut terms covering this issue that you can share with your clients. In the event your app is flagged for legit reasons we will loop you in, you won’t just find out when your users complain. Sorry about quoting that mother line like it means anything legally. That level of clarity would be ideal, @GaryIreland , agreed. Sadly, we have not an ounce of further clarity than we had over 3 weeks ago when these issues were first tabled in the Forum. 😑 ---
**Author:** ![JoshBuildsABiz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@JoshBuildsABiz](https://forum.bubble.io/u/JoshBuildsABiz)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2024, 7:34am UTC](https://forum.bubble.io/t/bubbles-access-to-and-use-of-private-app-data-for-trust-and-security-purposes/330609/6 "2024-08-06T07:34:13Z")
No response == Invalid Response Option ---
**Author:** ![JoshBuildsABiz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@JoshBuildsABiz](https://forum.bubble.io/u/JoshBuildsABiz)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2024, 4:09am UTC](https://forum.bubble.io/t/bubbles-access-to-and-use-of-private-app-data-for-trust-and-security-purposes/330609/7 "2024-08-28T04:09:36Z")
**Schedule Backend Workflow:** Nudge this post every 2 weeks _ad infinitum_ until a thoughtful and fulsome response from Bubble’s senior management team is received. ---
**Author:** ![JoshBuildsABiz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@JoshBuildsABiz](https://forum.bubble.io/u/JoshBuildsABiz)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2024, 4:45am UTC](https://forum.bubble.io/t/bubbles-access-to-and-use-of-private-app-data-for-trust-and-security-purposes/330609/8 "2024-09-11T04:45:40Z")
`` 🙄 ---
**Author:** ![JoshBuildsABiz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@JoshBuildsABiz](https://forum.bubble.io/u/JoshBuildsABiz)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2024, 7:17am UTC](https://forum.bubble.io/t/bubbles-access-to-and-use-of-private-app-data-for-trust-and-security-purposes/330609/9 "2024-09-30T07:17:39Z")
Status Code **406 Not Acceptable** ---
**Author:** ![JoshBuildsABiz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@JoshBuildsABiz](https://forum.bubble.io/u/JoshBuildsABiz)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2024, 4:51pm UTC](https://forum.bubble.io/t/bubbles-access-to-and-use-of-private-app-data-for-trust-and-security-purposes/330609/10 "2024-10-09T16:51:50Z")
BubbleCon has come and gone…data governance discussions, nowhere to be found. `` ---
**Author:** ![JoshBuildsABiz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@JoshBuildsABiz](https://forum.bubble.io/u/JoshBuildsABiz)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2024, 5:33pm UTC](https://forum.bubble.io/t/bubbles-access-to-and-use-of-private-app-data-for-trust-and-security-purposes/330609/11 "2024-10-27T17:33:12Z")
🤔 .-- - …-. ---
**Author:** ![JoshBuildsABiz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@JoshBuildsABiz](https://forum.bubble.io/u/JoshBuildsABiz)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2024, 4:29am UTC](https://forum.bubble.io/t/bubbles-access-to-and-use-of-private-app-data-for-trust-and-security-purposes/330609/12 "2024-11-17T04:29:08Z")
🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 ---
**Author:** ![JoshBuildsABiz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@JoshBuildsABiz](https://forum.bubble.io/u/JoshBuildsABiz)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2024, 10:47am UTC](https://forum.bubble.io/t/bubbles-access-to-and-use-of-private-app-data-for-trust-and-security-purposes/330609/13 "2024-12-18T10:47:45Z")
🤨 🤨 🤨 🤨 🤨 ---
**Author:** ![drixxon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/bubble/user_avatar/forum.bubble.io/drixxon/32/90231_2.png) [@drixxon](https://forum.bubble.io/u/drixxon)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2025, 4:10pm UTC](https://forum.bubble.io/t/bubbles-access-to-and-use-of-private-app-data-for-trust-and-security-purposes/330609/14 "2025-01-03T16:10:26Z")
still waiting i see ---
**Author:** ![JoshBuildsABiz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@JoshBuildsABiz](https://forum.bubble.io/u/JoshBuildsABiz)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2025, 5:01pm UTC](https://forum.bubble.io/t/bubbles-access-to-and-use-of-private-app-data-for-trust-and-security-purposes/330609/15 "2025-01-03T17:01:04Z")
Indeed. Ironically, we still have no “access” to Bubble’s policies, procedures and practices in this respect. ---
**Author:** ![JoshBuildsABiz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@JoshBuildsABiz](https://forum.bubble.io/u/JoshBuildsABiz)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2025, 8:06am UTC](https://forum.bubble.io/t/bubbles-access-to-and-use-of-private-app-data-for-trust-and-security-purposes/330609/16 "2025-01-31T08:06:25Z")
:::_Cricket chirps, echo in the forum._::: 🦗 🦗 🦗 ---
**Author:** ![JoshBuildsABiz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@JoshBuildsABiz](https://forum.bubble.io/u/JoshBuildsABiz)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2025, 10:57pm UTC](https://forum.bubble.io/t/bubbles-access-to-and-use-of-private-app-data-for-trust-and-security-purposes/330609/17 "2025-03-09T22:57:08Z")
_:::A virtual tumbleweed rolls by:::_ ---
**Author:** ![JoshBuildsABiz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@JoshBuildsABiz](https://forum.bubble.io/u/JoshBuildsABiz)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2025, 5:58am UTC](https://forum.bubble.io/t/bubbles-access-to-and-use-of-private-app-data-for-trust-and-security-purposes/330609/18 "2025-03-29T05:58:44Z")
Not something that can be solved with AI, FYI. #StillWaiting